Seeing is believing and the representation of truth

Seeing is believing and the representation of truth

Postby ootii on Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:54 am

A friend of mine sent me this link to a Taiwanese news provider's computer animation of Al Gore's recent encounter with a masseuse. He said that such animations are common on Chinese news.

http://www.breitbart.tv/animation-of-al ... encounter/

This raises the question of what to believe: Why do we tend to believe what we see, even if it is a computer animation? Video may even trump an affidavit from an eyewitness or a plaintiff.

Ever more realistic computer animation could has serious implications for education: just as we try to distinguish truth from falsehood in spoken and written words today, in the future we may also need to teach each other to distinguish truth from falsehood in what we see.

There is a Quranic connection to this. Surat al-Qamr begins with a cryptic reference to a miracle - the splitting of the moon.

The hour is neigh
and the moon is cleft asunder.

But if they see a sign
they turn away and say
"This is but transient magic."

(54:1-2)


The ayat witnesses that people in the past were critical of what they saw, that they chose to believe or disbelieve their own eyes. The common basis for rejecting the evidence of sight was that sorcery could fool the eye.

I don't want to comment on this particular ayat, the object of considerable controversy, but just to point out that even more than before, people need to be careful of the quality and the reliability of what they see. You can judge for yourself from the comments on that page how far people are willing to believe an animation and accept it as truth, right down to the angry cartoon steam coming out of the character's ears and the sexy saxophone music in the background.

Salaam,

Omar
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Re: Seeing is believing and the representation of truth

Postby Jamal on Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:03 pm

that they chose to believe or disbelieve their own eyes.


The example you give is a very good representation of this phenomenon. There's something fascinating about how allegations of how cultures treat women have become a cultural slur. I wonder if it's not something new. It definitely falls into the category of "true because we want to believe."

Ayaan Hirsi Magan (Ali) is a great example of a situation where she is an admitted liar, but still taken seriously among neocons and main stream American press. I actually heard her speaking on NPR the other day. I put her assumed name in parens because that's a fascinating issue in and of itself. She is highly critical of Islam, yet changes her name to a Muslim name. How does that work? It's a trade name and her occupation is professional victim/illusionist.

To me the Ayat you mention are all about how people will morph every observable fact into their own twisted reality until they are forced to do otherwise.

http://www.monotheizm.com/qs/chapters.php?chap=54

This is human nature. Becoming a "submitter" means turning off the autopilot and taking control of your life. We have a choice. We can proactively submit to reality or we can live in a constant cycle of ignoring and then being beat down by reality. Most people unfortunately choose the later.

In a democracy they make the choice for many people other than themselves. I'm becoming less and less a fan of democracy these days, not that I advocate dictatorships or anything like that. I just don't think anybody has the right to vote away my own fundamental rights. Should the fans of Ayan Hirsi Ali have the right to vote to wage war on other people? That's democracy. Policy is determined by the most lovely illusion.
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Re: Seeing is believing and the representation of truth

Postby Yaaluwa on Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:14 pm

Salaam Omar.

Thanks for bringing up the seeing and believing issue, and relating it to the education area. The issue can be and is researched and discussed widely in psychology, and possibly in many other fields such as biology, medicine, media sciences, and so forth.

We don’t have a category for Education on this Board. Maybe we should. I am not very comfortable with “Logic and Rationality” discussions. A belief that I share with many anthropologists is that different folks have different “logic and rationality”: To most people 3+4 is always 7. However, if the boss say so, sometimes the answer may be different.

“I don't want to comment on this particular ayat, the object of considerable controversy,”

Maybe some. The general Muslim public has not really discussed this issue in my experience, because they don’t study the Qur`aan seriously.

Maybe you will comment on another important use of the word for seeing in the Qur`aan, i.e. RU`YA. This is used frequently in the Qur`aan for something that most translators English as “dream”. However, some of the dreams that are mentioned in the Qur`aan seem to have been seen when the dreamer was quite awake, with eyes open. For instance the episode in which the Prophet Ibrahiim “saw” the command not to put the knife on his son’s neck, but instead to substitute a ram for the previously intended human sacrifice.

(I hope I am right about this reading.)

In any case, some important Western commentators have noted the relative lack of distinction that Muslims make between “dreams” and “visions”.

I had been discussing this with Muslims for some time without a good, coherent answer until I met an Egyptian brother whose wife is a dream study enthusiast. When I presented the questions to him, he suggested that I consider the verse in the Qur`aan which mentions the elephant that refused to enter Makkah in the year in which the Prophet is said to have been born, 105:1

"Hast thou not seen how thy Lord dealt with the owners of the Elephant?"

Did the Prophet see the events that are being referred to here?
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Re: Seeing is believing and the representation of truth

Postby ootii on Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:01 am

Salaam Yaaluwa,

You bring up several interesting points relating to philosophy, linguistics, and anthropology. I understand your discomfort with "logic and rationality" discussions. I put this here because belief is fundamentally a philosophical question. Epistemology deals with the study of the evidence of the external world - seeing and believing. This can provide a useful framework for understanding how people react to the evidence of perception. Philosophy helps us to frame questions and to examine possible responses in an orderly and defensible way.

Muslims have objected to philosophy because it raises questions that are sometimes regarded as blasphemous. I am uncertain why we should be disturbed by this more than Christians are but that is another discussion. Philosophy disturbs people generally - Muslims and others - because its constantly changing points of reference require a high tolerance for ambiguity. Educating people to tolerate ambiguity is not in the interests of dogmatists whose primary goal is to teach their view of the correct position on every possible topic, not to teach methods of inquiry and critical analyses of foundational doctrines - this is as true of political orthodoxies as it is of religious ones and you can see it in American society as the boundaries of public inquiry are increasingly restricted by an emerging, quasi-tyrannical political culture.

The controversy over the splitting of the moon is over the context of the reference: does it refer to an event in the life of the Prophet, upon whom be peace, or to a yet unwitnessed sign of the hour. It is cryptic and cannot be disambiguated by grammar alone. There are strong arguments supporting both positions.

You mention the distinction between a vision and a dream. The Arabic word /ru'iyah/ is a noun that means "vision" and can be used to refer to a particular kind of supposedly prescient dream. These dreams of future things are assumed to be a lesser kind of revelation. There is no doctrinal basis for assuming that such dreams are real, and there are strong arguments against the assumption that we might know the future through dreams. Nevertheless, people continue to believe that they can sometimes see the future in dreams. One possible reference for defense of this argument is in Surat Yusuf, where prescient dreams figure prominently throughout the story, both in the case of Joseph and, I believe, of his father Jacob. The argument neglects that both men were Prophets and so legitimate claimants to prophecy which can include a kind of divinely directed future-sight. The nounm /ru'iyah/ is used in Yusuf (12) at 5, 43, and 100; see also al-Israa 18:60, al-Saafaat 38:105, and al-Fath 48:27.

Words derived from /r'y/ are common in the Quran but commonly refer to eyesight and seeing. One derivation refers to the opinion of others or personal reputation. It was the common word for "to see" in the dialect of Quraysh and so it occurs frequently.

The dream you refer to in the story of Abraham could have been a waking dream, the same for the burning bush, and we know today that such lucid dreams are common. Arabic has a word for dream - /hilm/ - and this is the word that is ordinary used to describe the sleep-state consciousness most of us recall experiencing frequently. There is a broad literature describing supposed interpretation of dreams, both early and modern. Freud and Jung were not the first to realize that these experiences could be significant in some way.

I do not agree that Muslims do not make a distinction between visions and dreams. The statement is far to broad. In the first place and depends on there being clear linguistic categories for each of these two experiences. That means it is culturally bound beyond religion. With regard to Arabic, there are clear linguistic categories for each idea, evidenced by distinct words. Whether individuals confuse these two ideas or not depends on their personal understanding. At best, I think, there may be some confusion about lucid and sleeping dreams, but this confusion is not confined to Arabs or to Muslims. Indeed, most people do not understand this well. Lucid dreaming can be frightening since we assume that in a wakeful state, our perceptions do reflect a socially shared reality. This brings us back to the epistemological conundrum: is this really all a dream? explored in movies like Vanilla Sky, The Matrix series, and, of course, Groundhog Day.

In Surah Yusuf, the Prophet says, "Oh Father, I saw eleven stars and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrate themselves to me." His father, another Prophet, immediately understands the meaning of this and advises him not to tell his brothers about "what he saw". There is no mention of sleeping here and we have no basis for assuming that God may only "show" a prophet a peculiar understanding of events if he is asleep. In fact, this would violate the principle of divine omnipotence.

Finally, you mention the story of Abraha and his ill advised campaign against Makkah in the Jahiliyyah referred to one short sura:

"Hast thou not seen how thy Lord dealt with the owners of the Elephant?"

This refers to an historical event which occurred at least a generation before the Prophet was born. It is a cultural, historical reference. There is no basis to assume that the Prophet "saw" this in a vision or even as an eyewitness, and no reason for making any such claim. The event was common knowledge at the time. It is as if someone had said to you, "Did you not see how the US behaved in the American-Mexican war (1846-1847)?" If you said "yes", I would not understand that you actually saw Grant crossing the Rio Grande in a vision. If you went on to tell me that you actually saw it, I might call 911.

Of course, neither of us actually "saw" this. It refers to common knowledge and understanding - not to dreams, unless, of course, you want it to.

Image

Salaam,

Omar
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Re: Seeing is believing and the representation of truth

Postby Yaaluwa on Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:27 pm

Thanks Omar for your very engaging discussion of the issues.
You have suggested several leads in this discussion which had not been brought to my attention before, particularly in the linguistics area.

I will print out your answer and read it carefully. I may have some further responses, insha Allah.

Salaam.
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Re: Seeing is believing and the representation of truth

Postby ootii on Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:29 am

Jamal,

I hadn't thought about Ayaan Hirsi for some time. She was an interesting case. I'm not sure whether I remember the story correctly. She is a Somali immigrant to Holland and a former member of Dutch parliament who was caught out lying about her name on her asylum application. She explained her dishonesty with a claim that her relatives in Somalia would kill her if they could find her because she had refused to marry her cousin. The explanation was widely accepted but she resigned her parliamentary seat anyway. Hirsi was also involved with the film maker Theo van Goth, who was murdered by a religious extremist. Some people enjoy baiting bears.

People believed Hirsi's explanation for her sudden change of name on her immigration papers. I think this is consistent with a common view of ethics - that ends sometimes justify means. This is sometimes called utilitarianism and there is evidence that it is a view sometimes adopted by Muslim scholars as well. Here, the end would be to move herself out of Somalia into a country where she was more likely to have the active public life she obviously wanted. I don't think that anyone would argue that she would have had an equal chance of doing this in Somalia. Unfortunately, telling immigration authorities that you want to move to their country because you want to get into politics and you can't do that in your homeland is unlikely to weigh very heavily in your favor. She further supported her application by linking it to the oppressed Muslim woman narrative, adding in an honor killing threat for extra insurance. Her story may have an element of truth to it and I suspect that many people who appeal for refugee status are sometimes liberal with the truth.

The oppressed Muslim woman narrative seems to have a life of its own. While is possible to deny the narrative without denying that Muslim women are oppressed, this assumes that people are more interested in truth than they are in proving that they are right. Many people do value truth but to move outside yourself and genuinely strive for it requires a degree of integrity and moral training, often religiously supported, that has probably always been the exception rather than the rule. It sometimes places us in the position of acting against our own best interests, violating fundamental survival instincts.

To me the Ayat you mention are all about how people will morph every observable fact into their own twisted reality until they are forced to do otherwise.


Some people do live in their own private reality, but most do maintain some reference to the external world and they interpret their knowledge of that world in different ways. To be able to re-assess our view of reality, we need to be able to accept the possibility of error, that we may be wrong. Some people find this easier to do than other, but it becomes particularly difficult when perceptions are socially enforced, that is to say, that particular views are "popular" while others are "unpopular". People are tribal and need the support of peers. Most are reluctant to challenge accepted views. Group loyalty is another survival instinct.

This is human nature. Becoming a "submitter" means turning off the autopilot and taking control of your life. We have a choice. We can proactively submit to reality or we can live in a constant cycle of ignoring and then being beat down by reality. Most people unfortunately choose the later.


Yes. This is the meaning of Tawhid - of serving only one master. To me, it also implies a rejection of organized religion. These are ideas that have been around for as long as history but people will still call them revolutionary because they put individuals in control of their own lives. In this context, "submitter" sounds almost ironic. The reason for an almost near universal agression toward Muslims throughout history is that they have not easily submitted to human authority.

In a democracy they make the choice for many people other than themselves. I'm becoming less and less a fan of democracy these days, not that I advocate dictatorships or anything like that. I just don't think anybody has the right to vote away my own fundamental rights. Should the fans of Ayan Hirsi Ali have the right to vote to wage war on other people? That's democracy. Policy is determined by the most lovely illusion.


Democracy is a social decision-making process. This, too, has been around for at least 4000 years. We forget that before Rome was an empire ruled by tyrants, it was a republic, and a democracy. America is the most successful institutional state in history, but that does not mean that the fundamental contradictions of democracy have disappeared.

Your statement that people do not have the right to vote away fundamental rights can form the basis of a good argument against secularism. In a secular state, we must accept that people can do this, since the only possible law is that which the people themselves choose. In a democratic state, it would be theoretically possible to erode legal protections to the point of permitting genocide. Israel may be an interesting illustration of this principle.

While it does not link directly with democracy, the exestential argument first appears in the Torah with the advice to conquering Hebrews to "suffer no soul to survive." Binyamin Kahane, erstwhile activist in the banned Katch movement, spoke of this. According to him, the Torah's advice is that conquered people should be reduced to slavery or slaughtered outright. To permit any survivers invites future threats since no person will suffer another to steal his property without objection. The Biblical record describes the Hebrews as conquering invaders of Palestine whose mission is to cleanse the land of its original inhabitants and make it their own. And here we have another ethical dilemma.

Salaam,

Omar
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Re: Seeing is believing and the representation of truth

Postby Yaaluwa on Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:04 pm

Salaam Omar.

Your post of June 30th touches several issues which are worth talking about at length, if we want to get into this question of “seeing” and “dreaming”. If so it should be a different thread in Psychology or in Qur`aan Study.

Taking one piece at a time:

The noun /ru'iyah/ is used in Yusuf (12) at 5, 43, and 100; see also al-Israa 18:60, al-Saafaat 38:105, and al-Fath 48:27.


1. Thanks for this research.

2. There is some discussion in English language scholarly publications about the difference in the Islamic dream theory which arises from the assumption that Arabic and Muslims in general do not distinguish between sleep visions and awake visions, even as sensation, in the same way that English speaking people do. Kelly Bulkeley (whose edited volume, Dreaming in Christianity and Islam appeared in print last year – interesting book to read) raised this question first in an article published soon after the 9/11 horror. I have commented on his question elsewhere.

Your objection to the question indicates that there is more to discuss about this matter and that there is a need to launch a project toward achieving some kind of consensus about the word and its translation. The work has to be done both ways: how do the applicable Arabic words translate into English as well as how do the applicable English words translate into Arabic? For instance is there a word for hallucination in the Qur`aan and Hadith?

Some of the Arabic words for dreaming possibly have Hebrew cousins, as do the dream stories of the Qur`aan.

You have mentioned “lucid dreaming”. The active use of this concept is very new in English. Techniques for it are still being explored. I would not rush into trying to use this to refer to the dream phenomena mentioned in the Qur`an and Hadith.
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